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Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Peregrine on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:03 am

Peregrine wrote:
there is a reason it sits at a whopping 2.2% of browsers
4.6%, and that's still 275 million people. I don't know Caeel, is that a lot?
As an addendum, what does this have to do with anything? More people use IE than FireFox, are you going to tell me next that means IE is better than FireFox?

Also, you still haven't answered my question.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:13 am

Peregrine wrote:
If you ask me, you are being annoying and making points about something which you are not at all familiar with.
He's a computer programmer who's been doing this since before you were born. But he is probably one of the dumb ones who uses Opera, unlike smart ones like you who use outdated versions of FireFox.

You are trying to be incredibly entitled by turning on a browser feature that has little to no use and then expecting people to program around it
You are trying to be incredibly entitled
entitled
Caeel are you just trolling?

Opera has by far the worst JS interaction of any "big" browser, even worse than IE.
IE is currently #1 so I'm not surprised Opera is worse.

Opera is loaded with all these bloaty that slow down the entire browser.
Opera has the fastest boot times of any browser and is rivaled in speed only by Chrome.
Boot time isn't everything bro.
If I wanted a built in IRC program, I would download an add-on for my browser of choice
That's a good point. I guess that proves it, Opera is a bad browser.
It's an unnecessary feature that contributes to slower loading times.
Opera is not the fastest
NU-UH.
http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/186346-Is-Opera-a-bad-browser-or-the-worst-browser
lightest
True, but it is most stable, which is great for web developers doing debugging.
Why would a web dev use a browser that doesn't interact very well with something that they are trying to debug?
nor most innovative browser
Let's look at a list of popular features in innovative web browsers like FireFox that Opera did first:
1) Tabbed Browsing
2) Speed Dial (It's only available on Opera, of course they came up with it).
3) Tabbed Browsing
4) Pop-up Blocker (Cite source please)
5) Tabbed Browsing
6) The ability to clear private data. (Cite source please)
7) Tabbed Browsing
8) Saved Browser Sessions (Cite source please)
9) Tabbed Browsing
10) Tabbed Browsing
If I use that logic, Gosling Emacs text editor was the inventor of tabs.
Also did you know FireFox's new menu button has been Opera's menu button for years? Now you do.
Wtf are you talking about? Maybe on the PC but I can't even confirm this.

there is a reason it sits at a whopping 2.2% of browsers
4.6%, and that's still 275 million people. I don't know Caeel, is that a lot?
I don't think there are 5.75 billion people with access to the internet, USA caps out at somewhere between 175-200 billion users as of a bit ago, and China comes in after that.

Finally, Opera is so difficult to support that unless you are a large corporation, there is almost no reason to support Opera.
Corporations like Nintendo who use Opera as the web browser for the Wii.
Just because people use it does not make it good.

I know people you will either charge you extra or not give services to someone who wants to include support for Opera. Why do you think that is?
That sentence is just a bunch of gibberish and it ended with a condescending question so I'm going to assume that you're wrong.
Really? Shall I break it down for you? There are some people who, if you want to have a website that supports Opera, will either a) charge you extra, or b) not give service to you because Opera is so difficult to support. Why do you think that they would charge more?


Last edited by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:17 am

Peregrine wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
there is a reason it sits at a whopping 2.2% of browsers
4.6%, and that's still 275 million people. I don't know Caeel, is that a lot?
As an addendum, what does this have to do with anything? More people use IE than FireFox, are you going to tell me next that means IE is better than FireFox?

Also, you still haven't answered my question.

People use IE because they are either to old to care, they're stuck on outdated hardware, and because it comes with Windows. More people have moved away to Chrome/FF than Opera by a substantial amount because they are both superior in almost every way, so that is what it has to do with anything. Why would people go to Chrome and FF if Opera is so vastly superior?

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Tim Hortans on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:31 am

are you illiterate
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Peregrine on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:32 am

Caeel I think you're being entitled asking me to cite my sources.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:00 am

No, I'm not, because I asked you with a please, and I am not asking something unreasonable. Neither are your points valid unless cited.

Now let me tell you a story, a story of my experiences with Opera.

1. I used Firefox because of how superior it was it Safari.
2. One day I needed to access a website that was being dumb, and I heard I could get on by editing some cookies in Opera, so I downloaded Opera and it worked!
3. Then I decided to make Opera my main browser and it worked great for just browsing the web.
4. About I week later, after starting work I my own personal website, being the naive young 15 year old I was, I started to check my work in Opera.
6. All went fine and dandy until I got to a point where I was trying to get a bar to sit at the bottom of the web page, but I couldn't get it to work.
7. I kept looking around for a solution and then finally tried Chrome... And Safari... and Firefox. Oh look, it worked fine.
8. *Leaves Opera for Chrome*

Trust me, I tried making Opera work, and while I do think some of the features are cool (if a bit useless in some cases), but it just isn't good for developing. At a stage where I was 100 lines of code in and Opera had already failed to perform where Safari/Chrome/FF had not, I decided not to use Opera any more, haven't had any qualms since. Oh, and that bar I was trying to stick to the bottom of the page works now... Except it doesn't change opacity like I want it to, at least in Opera it doesn't.


PS: Your math does not compute. There are some 2.8 billion people with access to internet, if Opera takes up 4.6% market share and has 275 million users, then there are near double the number of internet users that actually exist (at 5.775 billion). The actual number of Opera users (people that actually use it for their daily needs) is more likely at 50-100 million. Never take statistics from the website in question, seeing as they can become skewed (notice that Opera's FAQ states that 275 million people use it at least once a month).

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Peregrine on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:20 am

I am actually too busy/tired tonight to have a browser war with you with you, and to be frank I don't care anymore after seeing you write inside a quote, so I'll just briefly cover some key points to wrap up/clarify some things I said and be done with it:

-I should probably have guessed your opinion was taken from a three year old forum thread posted by some random guy with a keyboard and an opinion. Opera's changed javascript engines since then by the way completely changing everything.
-The issue with writing HTML in Opera is that it has excellent standards-compliance, whereas all the other browsers are a bit more lax. It's a non-issue if you know what you're doing but I can understand the frustration to a beginner. I never really thought about it myself as when I started using Opera I already knew HTML, and I use CSS for things like opacity because doing that with HTML is like making a game in javascript.
-Opera has a full suite of developer tools in the form of Opera Dragonfly. Additionally I stated earlier that it is the most stable browser making it a godsend for developers ("dumb" ones with degrees) looking to spend upwards from a day debugging.
-The 4.6% and the 275 million number were unrelated, my mistake. The 275 million number is the accurate one.
-Opera is less popular than Chrome and FireFox because of advertising. Would you rather buy something branded by Google or Opera? That's a rhetorical question by the way, I don't care to hear your reply since apparently it's part of your religion to hate Opera or something.

(It's only available on Opera, of course they came up with it).
It's named something different in other browsers but they certainly have the same concept.

4) Pop-up Blocker (Cite source please)
6) The ability to clear private data. (Cite source please)
8) Saved Browser Sessions (Cite source please)
Oh look Caeel, I googled "things Opera did first" and this was the first result:
http://www.slashgeek.net/2012/06/08/5-features-opera-browser-did-first/

If I use that logic, Gosling Emacs text editor was the inventor of tabs.
Caeel I said "tabbed browsing" not "tabs".

Unless you grossly misrepresent something I said I'm done talking. Feel free to make a lengthy reply and get the last word in so everyone knows how totally right you are. Don't forget include the top google result of "opera is the worst browser", after all your opinion is only meritable if you shove links to random forums into your post.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by DigDog on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:23 am

2) Speed Dial (It's only available on Opera, of course they came up with it).
It's also available in Firefox.

Why would people go to Chrome and FF if Opera is so vastly superior?
"So why does it only have a market share of 2.4%? To me, it looks like a matter of branding. Internet Explorer, Safari and Chrome are products from Microsoft, Apple and Google respectively, and Firefox has built up a great reputation over a long time. Opera, however, does not have a massive corporation behind it, nor does it have Firefox’s levels of marketing."

http://mac.appstorm.net/reviews/internet-reviews/opera-the-awesome-browser-that-nobody-uses/


Bottom line: Is Opera better than other browsers? That's a matter of personal preference. Is it equal to other browsers? Yes it is, and just because you couldn't make one coding example work in it a year ago doesn't make it a bad browser. It makes you a bad coder.

"Out of all the browsers that have existed (yes, including Chrome and Firefox), Opera has always been the one browser to stick with the standards 100% of the time and implement them correctly. Firefox stood for standards but it didn’t have 100% support (Acid3 test scores of 93/100, anyone?) but it still gained traction because the standards support was plenty better than Internet Explorer." (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-ideological-reasons-why-you-should-try-opera/)
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:37 am

1. The point of HTML5 is to make coding easier, making it harder to mess something up, something going directly against what you just said, that Opera has higher standards. Ex: XHTML wants you to do <div id="id" name="name"></div> and <br /> and HTML5 lets you do <div id=id name=name></div> and <br>.
2. I already knew HTML before I started using Opera, but when I sat down to build myself a website I ended up trying with Opera... It didn't work (as I said all of the other browsers did, and I know my syntax was correct because I spent 2 hours looking at what could be wrong).
3. Opera isn't the only browser with dev tools.
4. As to Opera's popularity, it comes down to the fact that they were slow on updates and were lagging behind even IE. This is relevant for the past little while, so I'll post this link http://archive.is/4kWz
5. Despite the fact that Opera is a "modern" browser, it still has issues rendering web pages, even the well coded ones. On top of that, Opera interprets JS very poorly. Things like http://www.favbrowser.com/horrible-opera-scrolling-performance-no-fix-in-sight/ shouldn't happen, this is 5 months ago.
6. Lastly, it all comes down to the end user, and when the end user is 96-98/100 times going to choose the competition over your product, you did something wrong. Chrome has been here for 2 years, has been through 21(23) updates, and has ~43% market share, compared to Opera, which over 18 years is on version 12, and holds ~2-4% market share and has never been able to topple IE. Clearly Chrome did something right.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:41 am

DigDog wrote:
2) Speed Dial (It's only available on Opera, of course they came up with it).
It's also available in Firefox.

Why would people go to Chrome and FF if Opera is so vastly superior?
"So why does it only have a market share of 2.4%? To me, it looks like a matter of branding. Internet Explorer, Safari and Chrome are products from Microsoft, Apple and Google respectively, and Firefox has built up a great reputation over a long time. Opera, however, does not have a massive corporation behind it, nor does it have Firefox’s levels of marketing."

http://mac.appstorm.net/reviews/internet-reviews/opera-the-awesome-browser-that-nobody-uses/


Bottom line: Is Opera better than other browsers? That's a matter of personal preference. Is it equal to other browsers? Yes it is, and just because you couldn't make one coding example work in it a year ago doesn't make it a bad browser. It makes you a bad coder.

"Out of all the browsers that have existed (yes, including Chrome and Firefox), Opera has always been the one browser to stick with the standards 100% of the time and implement them correctly. Firefox stood for standards but it didn’t have 100% support (Acid3 test scores of 93/100, anyone?) but it still gained traction because the standards support was plenty better than Internet Explorer." (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-ideological-reasons-why-you-should-try-opera/)

Not trying to attack anyone here but speed dial for FF is an add-on. FF doesn't have a massive corporation behind it (and forced Opera to go free). Just because it has high standards does not make the quality high.

Bottom line, JS was invented by a guy at Netscape so Netscape > all other browsers.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by V on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:47 am

I'm sorry Caeel are you trying to attack someone here?

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by DigDog on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:51 am

Stop trying to attack me Caeel.

speed dial for FF is an add-on.
Nope.

http://download.cnet.com/8301-2007_4-57447185-12/speed-dial-finally-comes-to-firefox/
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:55 am

Firefox 13 (download for Windows | Mac | Linux) comes with feature changes and tweaks under the hood. The new features include a redesigned New Tab page that shows you thumbnails of your frequently-visited sites, often dubbed Speed Dial in honor of Opera's take on the feature. Firefox is the last of the major browsers to get some variation of the feature.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by DigDog on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:04 pm

Your point?
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Being like speed dial is not being speed dial. Before speed dial came around FF had the most visited on your bookmarks bar. And I know that DigDog is just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by DigDog on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:14 pm

I'm disagreeing because you're wrong. It's websites displayed in a grid on the new tab page of the browser. It's the exact freaking same thing, no matter what you call it, and Opera invented it 4 years earlier.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:09 pm

The problem with many languages is that there are so many loopholes to go through that it's sad. I can definitively that you are wrong because Speed Dial and the FF equivalent are not exactly the same as you have stated. Are they coded the same? No. Are they part of the same browser? No. Is DigDog just trying to disagree with me because I presented an argument that contradicted his own earlier? Probably.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Erik on Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:42 pm

I'm sorry V are you Digdog calling out Caeel saying Pere?

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by DigDog on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:55 pm

Caeel can definitively that I am wrong.

Speed Dial and the FF equivalent are not exactly the same as you have stated. Are they coded the same? No. Are they part of the same browser? No.
Of course not, if they were exactly the same it would be called theft. That's not a loophole in a language, that's common sense. Of course it's a different code and a different browser, but that doesn't mean that the idea isn't the same. By that logic you could say that the tabbed browsing in Chrome is entirely different and not connected at all to the tabbed browsing in Firefox just because it uses a different language and a different browser.

By that logic a game that comes out on a console is entirely different from the same game that comes out on the PC just because they run on different code and platforms.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Leb on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:21 pm

It is company policy for me to state that I hate each and every single one of you trying to one-up one another and finish this debate, making YOU the winner.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by V on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:38 pm

I'm sorry Erik are you calling me a V?

Also what are you guys debating about

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Leb on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:41 pm

The debate of who here has the biggest browser-knowledge reproductive organ, obviously.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by V on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:59 pm

I think Pere brings up the best point

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by DigDog on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:19 pm

My browser-peen is bigger than Leb's browser-peen.
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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

Post by Caeel on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:57 am

DigDog wrote:By that logic a game that comes out on a console is entirely different from the same game that comes out on the PC just because they run on different code and platforms.

That would be correct. The PC version of a game is different than the console version of the game. But they are not entirely different as you say, they have the same art assets, sounds, and a variety of other things. I never said Speed Dial was vastly different than the FF equivalent, I simply stated they are not the exact same thing.

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Re: Sigh... I'm back (again) and I have a proposal.

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